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 Post subject: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Location: 68th and Hickman Rd. Des Moines
ENDURO!

A 4 hour Enduro (possibly with some $$$ prizes) is scheduled at MAM in Glenwood, IA for April 16/17 weekend, along with a double Drivers School so racers can get their club racing license.

If you have little or no racing experience, you can go through the two schools, and then also race the regional race and enduro that same weekend.

A lot of fun at a very forgiving track with few obstacles to hurt your car, too.

More to follow, watch our newsletter.

We are also trying to work out getting those with race experience such as Lemons, NASA, etc to transfer some or all of that toward a SCCA Racing License! There should be several new racers there, and it is guaranteed to be a hell of a lot of fun!

Watch for more info coming out!!!

Racer Dan

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Racer Dan
DMVR Solo, PDX, Rally Cross, Pace Car Driver, and general goof off guy!
Commander, NCM Fighter Squadron


Owner- Cottman Car Repair and Transmissions- Des Moines- We service / repair cars & trucks!
cell- 515-979-8473; shop =515-331-2100
96 Corvette GS, 2011 Camaro Bumble Bee, 73 Stars and Stripes Corvette convertible. Owner- road race cars: 69 Vintage Hugger Orange SS Camaro #48: Co owner- 1991 Cottman Miata #95.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:00 pm 
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It should be noted that the plan as it currently stands is to have a separate Lemons / Chump class within this enduro - y'all will just need to have an SCCA license, which can be handled earlier in the weekend. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:26 pm 
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I would assume the Lemons cars have to pass a SCCA tech inspection as well?


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:35 pm 
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dchamp wrote:
I would assume the Lemons cars have to pass a SCCA tech inspection as well?


Which is not likely any would pass if they have to have the correct dated belts, seats, fuel cells, etc. Most parts in Lemons cars are passed down from real racecars after they have expired.

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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Location: 68th and Hickman Rd. Des Moines
Actually, it is usually not all that bad. Talk to Tom Kraft at Kraft 5 Star on Tech requirements, he can look at your car and tell you what it needs, and do your tech, if you are in Des Moines (he is on South side).

We have been racing our Miata for many years, it has a race seat, but date was never checked. We have no fuel cell, and therefore no date on the factory gas tank, and the belts are only about $65 for a complete set, easy to install, and I think they are good for 2 years. The belts, occasionally the helmet are the only things we have had to update, that is pretty cheap, overall! Even our racing gloves, suit, shoes, etc do not expire.

For some classes, it is very easy to pass tech.

You might have to do a couple safety things, depending on the car. But once it is done, it is safer to race no matter where you go racing afterwards.

This makes Club Racing a lot cheaper for us all!

Racer Dan

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Racer Dan
DMVR Solo, PDX, Rally Cross, Pace Car Driver, and general goof off guy!
Commander, NCM Fighter Squadron


Owner- Cottman Car Repair and Transmissions- Des Moines- We service / repair cars & trucks!
cell- 515-979-8473; shop =515-331-2100
96 Corvette GS, 2011 Camaro Bumble Bee, 73 Stars and Stripes Corvette convertible. Owner- road race cars: 69 Vintage Hugger Orange SS Camaro #48: Co owner- 1991 Cottman Miata #95.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:06 pm 
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I'll give my opinion on this appealing to the Chump/Lemons crowd.

Cliff notes: It won't. Lemons/Chump racers are cheap asses. That is why they share a care between 4 to 6 people. :lol: Plus the atmosphere of Lemons cannot be copied.

Why?

We have discussed this somewhat with in our team, briefly though. And these are the main issues.

1. April 16th and 17th there is a Lemons race at Gingerman. There goes all your Lemons people. Lemons now has points based on region for national champions so making all your region races will be key for most teams now serious about Lemons.
2. 4 Hour Race. At a minimum Lemons and Chump Car teams will have 4 people (most teams have 6 people) that will want to race or participate and hour long stints frankly are not going to gain interest (50-55mins after pits stops get factored in). Minimum stints a driver serves right now in the car is two hours sometimes up to three if gas allows. That is a stint, per race a driver will see 4-5 hours behind the wheel. And that is for their investment of $500 a race. This was the killer for us. Minimum would have to be an 8hr endurance. And even then our team would only run 2-3 drivers. You really need a two day ( 8hr and 7hr ) or 24hour race to get 4 people involved driving. This is really the main issue here.
3. License requirements for Lemons are $50 a year. No schools needed, no time requirement, or large costs to get it.
4. Lack of $$$$ for Prize. I know you said possible, but Lemons is $1500 to the winner. Plus all the wacky and very cool trophies.
5. The team/car themes, penalties, and insanity of a 24 hour race.
6. How will the Lemons cars be ran? With all the other cars or in their own group? Lemons races see anywhere from 50-150 cars on track at a time and is part of the draw to be in a field that large.
7. Safety. Again most cars are reasonably safe (some more than others) but I doubt you will see a lemons team wanting to adhere to another clubs safety requirements due to increased cost. You will need to define the differences between the two events. Publish this list and make it easy for people to know what the differences are. Taking the car somewhere to be checked out isn't ideal.
8. Class rules, need to keep tires to lemons rules and engines mods and etc. $500 bux is the point here. SCCA would have to almost copy this.

I know this is in an effort to drive up participation at DMVR Club racing events but Lemons/Chump Car people in my opinion are not going to be interested. They have their race series, and people constantly try and copy in hopes of getting these teams to their events, but it just doesn't work. These teams are loyal to Lemons and enjoy that atmosphere and the ability to endurance race for two days straight with no sleep.

Just giving a Lemons team point of view as to why we would not attend one of these events and don't think anyone other Lemons team would either. Steve could speak for his team if he wants.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as a person who likes track days and racing, I would like to see our region do the PDX events and Club Time Trials. I think you would see participation grow slowly from that area. I'll be getting my feet wet in NASA next year for this reason. DMVR doesn't offer PDX or Time Trials, NASA does ($200-$350 for a weekend http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/ ). To me that fits more in line with traditional club racing and those interested in someday moving towards club racing. Lemons and Chump Car have their nitch and their teams are VERY loyal to those series. You won't see any of them jumping ship even for one event for a 4hour endurance race.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Thanks for the perspective, Jeremy.

As someone who has been involved with MVRG for a few years, I can say that we haven't put on any PDX events because MAM (Fast Friday, Boo Bash, etc) plus other groups (Damian and FindTheLine come to mind) absolutely KILL whatever we could offer from a dollar/track time standpoint.

I DO think the Time Trials could have some potential - I need to learn more about the SCCA requirements surrounding such things.

Jarrod


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Oh, and speaking as someone who has spent the last few years running a few events with an SCCA-based enduro team: 4 hours isn't long enough to pull that car or its friends to the track, either. It would have to be around 8 hours before the folks we've been racing with would start to show up.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:57 pm 
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One thing I see as an issue about Lemon and Chump car is the cages. They don't have to meet the SCCA standards. A lot of the are circle track kits that don't fit correctly and do not use DOM tubing. the cage I build for chump car is a DOM SCCA spec cages. This helped the car breeze right through ChumpCar tech.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:49 pm 
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jigou wrote:
Thanks for the perspective, Jeremy.

As someone who has been involved with MVRG for a few years, I can say that we haven't put on any PDX events because MAM (Fast Friday, Boo Bash, etc) plus other groups (Damian and FindTheLine come to mind) absolutely KILL whatever we could offer from a dollar/track time standpoint.

I DO think the Time Trials could have some potential - I need to learn more about the SCCA requirements surrounding such things.

Jarrod


Yeah there is a lot of competition in the area for PDX style events. The Time trial though really interests me, but again it could be a very small market too. :( Plus being able to maybe get back to Hastings. I like that track a lot more than MAM.

Thats really the issue with our region, we don't have the population some other regions do to help drive our sport. :( Need more people to move to the midwest, it's got cheaper living!!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Location: 68th and Hickman Rd. Des Moines
Jeremy and all,

I really appreciate these last few posts, keep them coming! Understanding how our competition works, and what we can do to attract the right racers is key to our success and growth! I will forward your posts to those on MVRG, of which Jerrod is now part of as well, so they can learn what is important to Lemons racers, etc.

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Racer Dan
DMVR Solo, PDX, Rally Cross, Pace Car Driver, and general goof off guy!
Commander, NCM Fighter Squadron


Owner- Cottman Car Repair and Transmissions- Des Moines- We service / repair cars & trucks!
cell- 515-979-8473; shop =515-331-2100
96 Corvette GS, 2011 Camaro Bumble Bee, 73 Stars and Stripes Corvette convertible. Owner- road race cars: 69 Vintage Hugger Orange SS Camaro #48: Co owner- 1991 Cottman Miata #95.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Another thing to consider, and I say this in attempt to let you know, not take sides. I really don't have an opinion either way.

The reason Lemons exists, is to get around the SCCA's rules, atmosphere, and costs. I've not been to an SCCA race, but from an outside perspective, SCCA racing has a stigma about it that the rules are excessive, the whining/protesting is petty, the costs are excessive, and that the competitors are standoffish/not helpful to each other... Now, being from the midwest, I don't anticipate that this exists to a great extent here, but getting rid of those complaints is the primary reason Jay does Lemons. Lemons teams are generally not at the event to win, they are there to race a bit, hang out a bit more, and make a bunch of new friends. It's not uncommon for teams to swap drivers mid-race, for people driving a car who blows up to drive anothers car, for teams to borrow parts/tools from other teams mid-race, etc. Not teams they are friends with, but "hey 'person-i've-never-met' would it be possible for me to borrow your mig and generator?" type stuff. Again, I've not attended an SCCA race, but based on the community outside of SCCA, this doesn't seem like that kind of atmosphere.

As for rules, Lemons has a few, but essentially they all come down to arbitrary, and sometimes random, judgement from the race director and his judges. Knowing that there's no whining, no protesting, no hitting, no 2 wheels off, no arguing, no speeding in pits etc. keeps the competitors from being dicks. Also, last I looked into it, Lemons racing is OMFGCHEAP compared to SCCA type racing. Our entry fee for a team of 4 is like $900 for a 15 hour race.

One more bit, I'm not sure how much you want the lemons racers on the track with you seasoned guys... We generally run... um.... i guess you'd call it "creative" lines... and for the most part, we're inconsistent in said lines. This is because we're f'ing novices, and we're out to have fun, fix our engine through the night, and then have more fun the next day.

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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Good feedback...

I think SCCA Club Racing, and Lemons racing are really different things all together.

It's too bad that the Lemons people have that perception about SCCA. It's been my experience both at local events, and at the week I spent working the Runoffs, that SCCA is a lot more friendly than that... but less of a party atmosphere than what Lemons sounds like.

As far as your driving skills go, I don't think you guys have much to worry about - a lot of the "experienced" drivers have very interesting driving lines, and spend a bit of time driving in the grass or mud.

I've been trying to encourage some of the Autocross guys to come out and work races with me. Those who have come out have a good time.

I'd love to see us do PDX events or time attack, but I agree we'd have to make them cost similar to the other events out there. FTL is renting from the same track, so why can't we work out a deal with them?

We need to do something to attract new drivers, last year we had no new rookies, which isn't a good thing at all.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:49 pm 
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Dave says: "As far as your driving skills go, I don't think you guys have much to worry about - a lot of the "experienced" drivers have very interesting driving lines, and spend a bit of time driving in the grass or mud."



Hey quit talking about me when my computer is off line! :shock:

And I only drive a litttle bit in the mud or grass, it is not like I drive the whole way around the track or anything! And it IS SHORTER, especially if you cut out two or three corners....!
:?
RD

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Racer Dan
DMVR Solo, PDX, Rally Cross, Pace Car Driver, and general goof off guy!
Commander, NCM Fighter Squadron


Owner- Cottman Car Repair and Transmissions- Des Moines- We service / repair cars & trucks!
cell- 515-979-8473; shop =515-331-2100
96 Corvette GS, 2011 Camaro Bumble Bee, 73 Stars and Stripes Corvette convertible. Owner- road race cars: 69 Vintage Hugger Orange SS Camaro #48: Co owner- 1991 Cottman Miata #95.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:45 am 
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dchamp wrote:
FTL is renting from the same track, so why can't we work out a deal with them?


If you watch FTL's calendar, you'll note that Damian ends up with "unwanted" weekends - weekends that would otherwise have the track going unused. Jimmy is smart enough to know that a few bucks is better than none. :D


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:13 pm 
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That makes sense.

We can't do it for the April race weekend since there's a double school... how about investigating doing a PDX on the Friday before the May race at MAM?


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:35 pm 
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dchamp wrote:
We can't do it for the April race weekend since there's a double school... how about investigating doing a PDX on the Friday before the May race at MAM?

Or maybe negotiate entry in "Fast Friday"?

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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:30 pm 
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I need to get to a Lemons race, so I can see what it is all about too! I know it has to be a blast!

Our intentions of offering the Enduro is not to steal from the scheduled Lemons race, which we obviously cannot do, but instead to offer race car owners another different venue for them to participate in, especially if they have a car with a roll cage in it and current belts, etc.

It is clear that SCCA has not done a good job of letting outsiders know what it takes to pass tech, in our Miata it was extremely simple, and no big deal. Belts 2 yr old or less, roll cage, and window net. Add to that the race suit, helmet, gloves, shoes, socks. Get a sticker, weigh the car, and you are done. Of course it is not a 650 hp car. That would mean more safety equipment, so some of you would have to have a parachute on yours to slow you down some! :D I know you guys all have juiced, gased, and blown cars. CHEATERS! :wink:

I am guessing that lemons does have different tech rules, but do not know for sure. But I do know that Chris Safranek was Chief of Tech at Lemons, and is also Chief of Tech at MAM for SCCA, and has been for a long time. She could tell us. It would be interesting to see if a Lemons car would pass SCCA inspection. I will ask her.

I know that when we did a NASA event, our SCCA licensed and Inpsected Miata did NOT pass their inspection, we had to do some minor welding on the cage. But they were really nice about it.

RD

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Racer Dan
DMVR Solo, PDX, Rally Cross, Pace Car Driver, and general goof off guy!
Commander, NCM Fighter Squadron


Owner- Cottman Car Repair and Transmissions- Des Moines- We service / repair cars & trucks!
cell- 515-979-8473; shop =515-331-2100
96 Corvette GS, 2011 Camaro Bumble Bee, 73 Stars and Stripes Corvette convertible. Owner- road race cars: 69 Vintage Hugger Orange SS Camaro #48: Co owner- 1991 Cottman Miata #95.


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:15 pm 
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All good stuff,

From my perspective I think most people in this format either Lemons, Chump or SCCA the majority is just a bunch of
"Car Freaks" Having a good time with what ever they choose to drive. You will always have that one person/group that will think they are getting screwed or get all PO.

Jeremy hit on a lot of good points and a Time Trials would be more suited to combine with the MAM event because of its base of people who want to get on track and is a stock vehicle. Friday would be the only day and you don't need too many workers.
It would almost be like a BMW Weekend with the exception of no driving school and if you make it the short course then the speeds would be more friendly to SCCA.
All I know is that no club should be holding events if it can't at least break even or SCCA needs to change its format to qualify or carry the burden/Lost, otherwise throw your 6K my way and I'll bet it all on Red and see what happens. :)
I enjoy Solo, been a worker at MAM which was cool and love driving for two hours at a time in a Lemons car and any 24 hour event is a blast it just takes me two days to recover from it all! :)


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 Post subject: Re: DMVR Enduro
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:29 pm 
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wedge wrote:
it just takes me two days to recover from it all! :)


At your age, what did you expect? :)

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